Shri Mataji Nirmala Devi

New Delhi, India
21 March 1995 

The great son of India, Mr Seshan, all the respected friends and guests, all My children Sahaja Yogis: It is true that Chaitanya organizes many things which are most unexpected. I have been a great admirer of Mr. Seshan. I saw a new rising sun, hope for Me. As you know My past that My father, My mother, sacrificed everything to get freedom in this country. Also, as you know about My life how I worked very hard as a young girl.

But when we got our freedom I don’t know what happened to us. We forgot many things. One of them was Gandhiji, with whom I have lived as a little child, who loved Me very much; and he said, ‛Let our country be free. First let our country be free. People who are slaves cannot talk of emancipation.“ We became free quite all right, but then – I don’t understand how – people did not realize their responsibility. Some of them who were very sincere thought it’s impossible to work out anything in this country. Then, to My surprise, I saw Shri Lal Bahadur Shastri, who was a Realized Soul. He knew Me very well, and I was hoping that he will work out the spiritual side of our country and will try to bring a great name for this great Yoga Bhumi. India, as you know very well, is really a country where so many saints, Incarnations, poets, of such high understanding and deep feeling were born. He died, and I felt that now all our greatness, all our traditions, all our culture, which has come to us from saints; Indian culture has not come to us from Freud but has come to us from saints. And gradually the deterioration, when I saw, I was really amazed how people are taking to things which are destructive for our country, no way constructive. So when I read about Mr. Seshan, again a tremendous hope kindled into My heart.

[BREAK IN TALK AT END OF CASSETTE SIDE]

‛…if they burn this train, we’ll all be burnt you see“.

I said, ‛Don’t worry, nothing will happen“, and then suddenly I find him entering into our compartment – just tears came into My eyes, of admiration.

I know My husband is another person whose birthday is today, who is not here. He sacrificed everything for honesty. For him, honesty was so important. He was wedded to it to such an extent that if I tell you any story, you won’t believe to what extent he was honest. One day, I had gone to a library, and I was coming out, in Lucknow (he was City Magistrate at that time), and it was raining heavily, there were no rickshaws, nothing; and, as government servants, you are really poor, you can’t afford many things. He came on a police jeep, so I stopped him. He said, ‛I can’t stop. I’m going for important work and I can’t take You in the jeep.“

I said, ‛All right, you go ahead; doesn’t matter“, because patriotism is very important. If you have no feeling for your country, you cannot do anything good. Any kind of sacrifice is not sufficient to satisfy that desire to do something for your country and countrymen. One thing, if our politicians know, that they’re not in the business, they are not here to make money, but to get the fame. Even now, today, you take the name of Lal Bahadur Shastri, people just stop thinking about, just stop, they get lost. I know about My father, same thing. I forced My husband, of course I forced him, to write a book about Shastriji. You’ll be surprised, as soon as it was published, all the books are already sold, all over the world.

So, one thing, one must realize and have hope, that innately there are so many people in this world who are seeking the truth, and who want peace of mind and the global peace. It’s a fact, it’s a fact. Apart from the Blessings of the Divine, even the people – as he has said that he had the experience of the people of violence, this, that; is true, there is violence; people have tortured us also and troubled us. It’s all right; better to forgive, because they are ignorant and they are in darkness. What we can do is to give them light. If you give them the light they will throw away everything that is destructive.

You all know, in your own lives, how you have transformed yourself. I was surprised that, in England, over-night, people gave up drugs; over-night. They got Realization; from second day – no drugs at all. There are people who are using military, this, that, to stop drugs. When the enlightenment takes place, your attention itself becomes so beautiful.

Now, when we talk of Christ; He was a very great soul. I think He never understood human beings; they never understood them. But He has said that: ‛If your one eye does anything wrong, take it out. If your one hand does any sinful thing, cut it out.“ As I told you, I haven’t seen one man with one eye taken out or, one hand cut. Same with Muhammad Sahib: He took, what He said was, ‛Why only make the men responsible for religion? Why not make also the women?“ So He passed laws about women, and He said: ‛All right; women who have immorality in them should be put half way into the Mother Earth and should be beaten and killed with stones.“ Now this was not for human beings, I tell you; this is for angels. They are so great that They never realized that you cannot be a Christian, Muslim or a Jew; and the Shariah is given to Jews by Moses, which is now taken over by Muslims. It’s a misunderstanding about human beings. I think They never had human realization. They didn’t know what’s the problem with human beings.

I haven’t done anything. Kundalini awakening has been in this country for thousands of years, and also we have had people like Adi Shankaracharya who has talked about it; Gnaneshwara, in the twelfth century, has talked about it; but the people in charge of the religion – dharmart[k?]andas – always thought, ‛That’s no good, that’s no good.“ And that’s how we have forgotten. Even many people in the North do not know what is Kundalini. They think Kundalini is horoscope (kundali).

So all of this was kept in a very secret – I should say – secret way. Only the Nath Panthis kept up the awakening, but the tradition was that one person could give Realization only to one person, one guru had only one disciple. This was the tradition. At the time of Gnaneshwara, in Maharashtra, in the twelfth century, He requested His guru, His own brother, that: ‛Allow Me at least to talk about it.“ And in the sixth chapter of Gnaneshwari He wrote it. But again the dharmamartandas said, ‛No“. How they tortured Adi Shankaracharya, how they tortured Gnaneshwara, Guru Nanaka, all of Them. All these Saints have never been recognized by these dharmamartandas, and they were in charge – general public understood Them – but they were in charge of religion. Thus, all this great heritages that we have was all lost into wilderness.

What Gandhiji had told Me: ‛After realization You start Your Sahaja Yoga.“ What Shastriji had told Me:“ Let me solve the problem of Pakistan and of Kashmir and then You can start Your Sahaja Yoga.“ He used to only talk to Me on Sahaja Yoga, nothing else. But the problem is, if you go on postponing, it goes on like that. Now, in My small way, I have… he is a great person, he has worked as a great bureaucrat and all that; and I have seen many bureaucrats. I mean, he’s a rare one, I must say, who thinks of spirituality; very rare.

The essence of secularism also was lost completely. Gandhiji’s secularism – because I stayed with him in the ashram – he was extremely a strict man, I must say, he was another very, very strict person. I was, you see, a person who could eat anything, get up any time; I mean, I had no problem. But the way he used to make everyone get up at four, have your bath, come for the puja, sit down for pratana[?]; and there used to be some snakes also, in front of you. But his quality was that what he said, what he did, he believed into, he followed it; there’s no hypocrisy about it. Also he used to get into temper with people who would misbehave, and I used to put some cool water on him, because I was a little girl, you know. He would really understand it and he used to say, ‛How is it You keep so peaceful about all such things?“

I said: ‛That’s the solution, that’s the solution.“ Reaction is not the way we can really work it out. In this, I would say, Buddha has that – you must forgive everyone. Forgiving, itself solves the problem by, I think, ninety percent at least.

In Sahaja Yoga we have various activities, and one of them that we regard family as a very important thing. We don’t believe in sanyasa or anything to be given up and go to Himalayas, because we have seen, where ever these things are practised, is very unnatural and people indulge into all kinds of immoral things. By force you cannot bring morality; you cannot. What Shankara has said is true, what Vivekananda has said is true, in this point, that you cannot force morality. Then what should we do? This side is indulgences, in the West; this side is just a force, according to the Muslims and according to the Jews; then what should we do? Both sides do not help you to be moral. You move from one end to another. Only way is to awaken the Kundalini which pushes your attention to the center, pierces through your fontanel bone area, and gives you the connection of the Divine Power all around. But nobody believes, you know, if you tell them there is a Divine Power. If you ask them: ‛Who runs your heart?“ the doctor will say,

‛Autonomous nervous system.“ But who is this ‘auto’? They don’t know. Science cannot answer the question he said: ‛Who am I?“ It cannot; Sahaja Yoga can. You are the Pure Spirit; you have to become the Pure Spirit. This is the answer which has worked out in all of you.

Of course it gives you health, also it gives you wealth, because of your attention, but not the wealth as we see, but Lakshmi’s Blessings, that you keep a balance. It gives you creativity. I know of so many artists who have become world-famous after coming to Sahaja Yoga. Musicians, artists, they have suddenly gained. It gives you wisdom, it gives you intelligence; also I know of many children, who have failed in their classes, have become first-class students. You all know I am not telling a story, you all know very well. All of you can write one book about the miracles you have seen in life. It is all there, it’s truth, because this All-Pervading Power is not only the Ocean of Knowledge, It’s not only the Ocean of Bliss, Compassion and Love, but It is the Ocean of Miracles; and so many miracles have worked, that now we have decided not to write any book because how can you write so many volumes? From where to get so much money to write these volumes also? But all of you know very well that there are so many miracles in Sahaja Yoga. Even, you have seen the photograph of this All-Pervading Power which has light. So many photographs we have, to convince people. But it’s said that you cannot give Realization to people who are idiots, who are muras, who are stupid; then to people who are arrogant and adamant. I think it has something to do with your previous lives that people are so ready to get Realization.

I would like to quote the Russians – Russians in thousands are there in (ED. sounds like ‘Satyin’ – possibly a place in Russia) in thousands, unbelievable – they don’t know Me, I’m a foreigner, they don’t know anything about Me; but for them My program is always in a big stadium, all full. And in the stadium they get Realization, they settle down with it, they practise it, and they are Sahaja Yogis, and they get cured. Even the scientists, I was surprised; two-thousand, five-hundred scientists were there for the conference where they conferred upon Me an honorary award for being the greatest scientist and the philosopher. Can you believe it? And they had only given ten awards, out of which, so far – it’s a very ancient university of St. Petersburg – I was one of them.

And I said, ‛How could you give Me this award? It is too much, because Einstein has got it also.“ They said, ‛What Einstein? What work has he done? He has worked on matter; you have worked on human beings.“ I was rather shy about the whole thing. I couldn’t believe it. Now the government of Russia has given Me award. Can you imagine? My government has not but government of Russia has given. My husband has got, I think, hundred and thirty-five awards: N.K.C., M.G., all this; and he said, ‛Actually, You should get an award.“

I said, ‛For what? For what am I… This is My Love that is working. I am not paid for it, nothing. It’s just My Love which pays.“ This Love is something… is a feeling of oneness with you, oneness with My country, oneness with your countries, oneness with you, your families, everything. It’s something I always feel that they are part and parcel of My Being; they are all part and parcel of My Being. And that is how I remember you; I remember every person through the picture of their kundalini, as it was and as it is today; for which I don’t exert, assert anything.

Now, people say, ‛You travel so much.“ – My Passport is so big; this is the third passport I have; so big I cannot put it through the slit – but I don’t travel; I am just sitting there. I don’t think, I don’t travel; I am sitting there as I am sitting here. I can sit anywhere. Just not to think, to be in thoughtless awareness, is the first sign that you have achieved your ascent – nirvichar samadhi. So many of you achieved it.

On My birthday I don’t know what to say; it comes and goes, and comes and goes. Seventy-two years have passed; I don’t think about it. I also don’t feel My age at all, in any way. Because I don’t think about it. It is there; till I have to live I’ll live. When I don’t have to live I won’t live; that’s all. That’s not My job. My… if there’s anything My Love wants to do, it’s to give Realization to everyone in the world; whatever they are. And only after Self-realization, I have seen, people show their love for their country; immediately they know what’s wrong with their country, immediately. They are the ones who told Me that: ‛Mother, this is wrong with our countrymen.“ Another one will come and tell Me, ‛Mother, see, this is wrong with our society.“ Another, ‛With our politics.“ I was amazed; so far they could never see these things, they are so proud of their country that they could never see anything wrong with them. And here is somebody who has seen the wrong, what is destroying this great country. But it can never be destroyed; it’s a country of eternal nature; it cannot be destroyed. Again and again people of this quality will come up and save this country from complete destruction. Corruption, of course, is the worst thing, but because they believe that it’s a business. Actually they should know that it is through politics: people like Abraham Lincoln, Sadat, and so many people; have such a love.

I went to Turkey, and Ataturk Kemal Pasha, whose life I had read when I was very young, it’s really made those people so conscious about their own country. But with the influence of the Germans it’s all getting spoilt. They worship Germans. Even, they have such a nice food; I mean, I must say, the best food you can get is Turkish. They get their food from Germany and now they have become poor. And that is what another thing we Indians have to learn. We should not try to copy others and get their products on our head, which are just plastics. We should try to help our own country. Every portion of every country, if it grows, the whole world will be strengthened; but by copying and by becoming slaves, it’s not going to, in any way, is going to improve.

Till this Sahasrara was open I used to wear pure khadi [Ed. ‘homespun cotton’]. My husband was collector and all that, and he’s a little fond of clothes; and he said, ‛At least take to something better.“

I said, ‛This is the best.“ And I was wearing khadi throughout. And I felt great satisfaction because this is My country, where people make khadi in the villages. This sari also is made in the villages. If we gave up saris, what will happen to them? Like this – a concern about your own countrymen has to come.

Once it starts, within you will be surprised, you’ll solve your problems that you talk of ecology. Gandhiji always used to say: ‛No, don’t have too many machineries“; always. Now I can see why he said so. Hand-made things; he preached for hand-made things; wear hand-made things which are artistic, and that’s how you will solve. Now in the West, I was surprised, people pay so much for hand-made things because they cannot make it anymore. Now the computer has come, the brain has given up. Now all these things are coming. We can calculate very well because we studied in the old style of education but now people can’t calculate even two plus two. I mean, what has happened to their brains?

So one should not take to artificial things too much; if you are in Sahaja Yoga, keep to natural things. I don’t say you become hippies or anything; nothing of the kind. In Sahaja Yoga you should be decently dressed, properly dressed according to your country; nothing to be given up, but you should not take to artificiality, because this artificial domination of matter kills our Spirit. There’s a struggle going on between matter and Spirit.

So we come to materialism and spirituality. The other day somebody asked Me, ‛Mother, You always say: ‘Make beautiful things with your hands, and things’, so You also talk of materialism.“

I said: ‛I don’t. Matter can only be used for expression of your love nothing else.“ For example, if I have to please you, what should I do? I give you a very small thing and you think it’s a very great blessings. This carpet which is here is beautiful; I see it, and I may say that this carpet is very beautiful. If it is Mine it’s a headache because I may have to insure it; but supposing I don’t think; then all the joy of this carpet starts trickling down Me, making Me peaceful completely.

So thoughtless awareness, if you establish it, then you will realize that you can conquer materialism fully because you don’t get any joy. You know the economic law is that, in general, wants are not satiable. You want: today a house, tomorrow a car, then a helicopter; I don’t know, like going on like that. But if you are in thoughtless awareness, whatever you have you enjoy. You enjoy everything, in the present tense, not in the past, nor in the future. And this state is what you all have achieved, and you have to also achieve another state of doubtless awareness, which also many of you have achieved.

I’m happy that he has seen the good work. Now, today, on your faces, he can see how they are glowing with joy, peace and freedom. They are free to do what they like but they won’t do it. I always give an example that, supposing I am very obstinate and conditioned, and I have a snake in My hand, and you tell Me, ‛Mother, you have a snake in Your hand“, but I am obstinate and there’s darkness, I’ll say, ‛No, I don’t listen to you. It’s a rope“; till that snake bites Me, I’ll hold on to it, but if there is little light, I drop out that, I throw away that snake immediately; nobody has to tell me. That’s how, now, you have become your own guide, you have become your own masters; you don’t need any master.

This is a country where Mother is respected. It’s a country of Motherland, and people understand the value of Mother. I think only the Mother could do this kind of a job, which is requiring so much of patience and love. If it was Father, like Shri Krishna, He would have used His Sudarshana [Ed. ‘discus’] and would have killed all of them, finished, solved the problem. Christ would have crucified Himself. But it’s not that; you have to work it out.

This is, of course, Ghor Kali Yuga [Ed. ‘worst part of the dark age’] but this is the time only when people will be seeking the truth because of the problems of Ghor Kali Yuga, and you will be blessed. Is written already, prophesized by Bhrigu Muni, so it’s nothing special about it, I’ve done nothing special. Only thing, if you say, I knew about it since I was born, I knew about Myself. If I’ve done anything, is to understand human beings, what’s the problem. They follow Christ, they follow Muhammad Sahib, they follow Ram, they follow Shri Krishna, they follow everyone; but nothing inside. What is the matter? Nothing penetrates; that was the thing, I thought, they are not yet connected, they are to be connected to all this. And then, only what I have done is to work out the permutations and combinations of human beings, what goes wrong with them. What’s not very difficult because there are only mainly seven chakras one has to work it out, and how can you raise the Kundalini to break the Sahasrara. And it worked, it has worked, is working out, in thousands.

In this country, also, we have thousands of people. I have been coming to Delhi for so many years but, you know, everybody is a politician here, everybody is a prime minister, nothing short of. I told My cook that, ‛You are from Delhi and while this servant, another one, is from South; he is much better in work, and one day you’ll be all displaced.“

He said, ‛Doesn’t matter; we’ll all become Prime Minister.“ So with this identification they lived here, and in this Delhi itself there are so many beautiful Sahaja Yogis. I’m very proud of you. Also we have so many people from abroad, so many countries are here represented. All the way they came for expression of their love for Me; from Japan, South America, from America, from Africa; every country: Switzerland, Italy, Spain, France, Russia, Bulgaria, Romania, Turkey; also from Tunisia. My Heart knows no bounds. In Kali Yuga nobody bothers about Mother, but the way My children are expressing their love, I don’t know how to express My gratitude.

Just try to love others. That is much more than loving yourself. Just try to give love, just try to forgive; you’ll be amazed that you will realize how glorious you are, how great you are, and suddenly you will discover that you are a global personality. This expansion is working out, and I’m hopeful that in My lifetime I’ll see this world coming to some peaceful state. As I’ve told you that the peace is within ourselves. It is not by organizations or by getting peace awards; it is within yourself, the peace which is to be established.

I’ve known many people, because of My husband, who have got peace awards, very big, big people; they are so hot-tempered that you can’t go near them, you see, you have to use a barge pole. So that shows – I don’t know from what angle they got peace award but those who have no peace within cannot create peace. You have to be peaceful; and this peace gives you that witness state. With that you see the whole world like a drama, and really you enjoy the humor of it, then you don’t get annoyed, you don’t get worried.

I read in the newspaper that today he has to face some sort of trial, in the witness box, and I was following him throughout; I’ve been always following him, and then I just put My Attention, I said, ‛I hope he will have energy to come to our program and enjoy us also.

This has been such a great occasion for Me because suddenly I find many doors are opening out and there are so many responses. So many mayors of many countries have written letters to Me, especially from Brasilia who came to the airport and gave Me the key of Brasilia and said, ‛Mother, please keep Brasilia in Your Attention so there is peace in Brasilia.“ Actually I didn’t know what to say, what to answer; just tears came into My eyes, that’s all. I was trying to control them. I just couldn’t say anything. I mean, this Mayor of Brasilia, of all the persons, suddenly appears at the airport. So many mayors, even in New York, in Canada, in Australia; they have written beautiful letters because they had some good experiences of Sahaja Yogis. It is you who can do the job; not Me. If I could do it, I would not have bothered about it. But we have to have good channels, and that is what – where ever Sahaja Yogis go they create such a beautiful image of Sahaja Yoga that everybody is impressed you see. And that’s how they have given us this kind of a beautiful response.

Now, as Mr. Seshan asked Me, ‛How are we to expedite and spread Sahaja Yoga fast?“ It’s such a good question. I said: ‛It is spontaneous; we cannot force on it; we respect everyone.“ But the way it is growing everywhere, I have great hopes that one day, all over the world, it will spread very fast.

Actually we don’t plan anything; we cannot plan, and it just works like that. Everything works so spontaneously that I am surprised, now, they came – these people from Punjab – and asked Me, ‛Mother, why don’t You come to Punjab? You see, very important.“

I said, ‛Let there be shanti“, because My husband doesn’t allow Me to go to places like that, that’s the trouble. So next year it became all very peaceful; I went down, and now I’m told that in Punjab we are getting the maximum number of Sahaja Yogis; mostly Sikhs. Same with Kashmir, I know. Kashmir is the Adi Shakti’s place, and I’m sure one day we can work out Kashmir very well.

In every religion there is some sort of a stupid stuff pushed forward; in everyone; nobody could really stop it, because those people who are in charge of religion have no enlightenment, they have nothing to do with it, anywhere. And that’s how, I have seen, people, say in Japan, they follow one religion, and in China they follow another religion. Both are just the same; one is Zen, another is Tao, but the misunderstanding is that they think: ‛We are exclusive“. They are not; none of them are exclusive. Muhammad Sahib described all of them: from Abraham to Moses, to Christ, to the Mother of Christ; and He said, ‛There have been more than one lakh nahbis on this Earth.“ But now, why to feel that we are exclusive? This exclusiveness comes from where? With Christ also He described all of them. Tao, the one religion that they follow in China is nothing but Sahaja Yoga – Tao is Kundalini. Zen is nothing but Sahaja; Zoroaster, everyone. But this exclusiveness has brought this problem and they are fighting among each other.

But there are also some stupid things, like I met one fellow from Bosnia very much interested in Bosnia, and he was a Muslim of course and, with great gusto, he was saying, ‛We must die in the name of God.“

I said, ‛Are you sure you are dying in the name of God?“

He said: ‛I am very sure.“ All right. So it is written in Koran – I think I have read Koran well, but they say so it is written in Koran – that if you die in the name of God and if you are put in a proper [DEL: ‛WHAT YOU CAN SAY“] grave, in a proper way, in an Islamic way; then your body will be resurrected at the time of Qiyama – resurrection time. This is the resurrection time, this is the resurrection – outan[?] – this is the time. And I told him, ‛Are you mad? After five-hundred years, what will be left in that grave? What bones are going to rise?“ Actually that way, I must say, in Indian philosophy is clearly said that your souls will rise. That seems sensible, because soul is eternal. But then another question I asked that, ‛You believe in a formless God (Nirakar); why are you fighting for the land? I tell you, I feel so concerned, the way people are fighting for God, this thing, that thing; and killing themselves. Do you think God will be happy with this kind of an idea?

So one has to really get Realization, otherwise there’s no solutions, I must say. There has to be transformation, otherwise there’s no solution. One can talk, talk, talk for hours together; nothing works out unless and until you are transformed.

So only thing is that, for Me, I feel that, as long as possible, I would strive to see that people get their Self-Realization, and settle down. There’s no hanky-panky about it, there’s no miracle of a stupid type. Actually the person who has transformed himself knows he is transformed. Then he gets all the powers; like one light which is enlightened can enlighten many people. And so he himself [ED. said], ‛You mean to say I have given Realization to all of them?“

‛Maybe; some; but not all.“

Even the people now who are living in Delhi City go abroad and give Realization. They go to villages, give them Realization. All over it is spreading like that. But when he asked Me the question, I have to just say that all the Sahaja Yogis have to realize what they are; they have to know, they should know, their identity. They are now the lights and they have to spread the light. They are busy with business, they are busy with politics, they are busy with this; it’s all there. I am also very busy; I have a family, I have grandchildren, I have My children, I look after My family also; at the same time, the main attention should be in giving Realization to others; that’s the only way we can expedite it. A person who is not a Realized Soul, who starts talking on religion bus – he’ll start collecting money; or I don’t know what he’ll do. But you people have that essence in you which you have to give to everyone; and nothing more enjoyable than giving Realizations to others. You may get the wealth of the whole world; it cannot be compared with that.

So this is the answer I want to give him, that I would request all the Sahaja Yogis, whether they are women or men, even children; can spread Sahaja Yoga, because they have got the powers in them to spread it, they have the Shakti to do it.

So then, that should be a case, not only for India but all over the world it can be done; and this is the promise, as a present, you have to give Me on My birthday, if you think it’s nice.

Thank you very much, thank you.

As an appreciation, and admiration, I have this for Mr. Seshan, which I have openly said it; it’s not secret, everybody knows what I think of him. I don’t know what to give him more than My innate Love, but the Sahaja Yogis wanted to give him some present, which he cannot refuse, something he cannot refuse. It’s no bribe, because we are not having any political party.